I'm with Duran in this instance. All believers on earth at the time will have to go through the GT:
There is certainly no shortage of Christians who believe this. But it is not the dominant Evangelical view, nor of prophecy scholars.
1) Fleshly Israel has been replaced by the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16).
And scripture says that if they abandon their unbelief. God can graft them in again. Remember? Also, Romans 11: 1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin."
Clearly there is a path in scripture that supports the many other references about a literal Israel in the Millenium.2) God’s people are destined to escape His wrath, but not the persecution heaped upon them by the beasts and their followers.
That is not exactly what scripture says. It says we are not appointed to wrath (period). Jesus is not a wife-beater.
3) Those caught up in the air will have no advantage over those involved in the first resurrection. Although the time frame for their ascent will differ,
The first resurrection is virtually simultanous with the rapture:
For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [b]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! - 1 Thess. 1: 15 (Amplified Bible)
This is the same event as most bible scholars agree.
First group will be part of the first resurrection, after the seventh trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15, 18). The two witnesses, part of the first group, will be publically resurrected after the pouring out of the fifth plague (Rev. 9:11; 11:3, 11, 12; 16:10, 11). Second group will be taken up after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31). In the same way they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:15-17 CSBO).
The natural sequence of Matt. 24 also places the rapture after the tribulation (Matt. 24:30, 40, 41).Jesus makes two very important statements that help us understand He is referring to the Second Coming of Christ in Matthew 24: 25-31 and not the Rapture.
First, He says that the world will mourn when they see Him in the clouds. This event is described in Zechariah 12:12. Christians will not be mourning at the rapture, but people will be mourning when they see Christ coming at the battle of Armageddon. Second, Christ says that the Son of Man will come on the clouds with power and great glory. Zechariah 14:1-6 describes His coming at the battle of Armageddon and He does come in great power, splitting the Mount of Olives and defeating the nations of the world.
Verse 31 does not describe judgment, but the gathering of Christians in preparation for Christ’s millennial kingdom. This verse summarizes the sheep and goat judgment which He later describes in greater detail in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and goat judgment determines who will be allowed to enter Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). For more information about the sheep and goat judgment visit, “When and where does the Goat and Sheep judgment occur?”
Conclusion:
Therefore, Matthew 24:15-29 describes the events that will occur from the middle of the tribulation to the end of the tribulation (see v. 15 and 29). This means that Christ’ second coming occurs next, which is verses 30 and 31.
Matthew 24:30-31 does not describe the rapture. There are three reasons verses 29-31 do not describe the rapture.
First, in verse 30 Jesus says that the nations will mourn His coming. But at the rapture Christians will be caught up and meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 teaches us that at the rapture believers will obtain imperishable bodies in a twinkling of an eye. That is, the rapture will in a twinkly of an eye. So Christ will not be seen by the non-Christian world. They will not see Him. Surely, believers will not mourn when they see Him.
Second, at the second coming of Christ, He brings the saints of the ages with Him (Zechariah 14:5; Revelation 19:11-16). After the second coming, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us that the Goat and Sheep Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations will occur next. At this time Christ gathers all of the mortal saints and unbelievers from around the world together for the Goat and Sheep Judgment. Then He sends the saints into the millennial kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and the unbelievers are sent to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41-46). Matthew 25:30-31 refers to Christ’s second coming and the Goat and Sheep Judgment. It is not about the rapture.
The third reason Matthew 24:30-31 is not the rapture is that the “sign of the Son of Man” refers to the second coming of Christ (Daniel 7:13; Revelation 1:7). Also, at the second coming, He descends from heaven with a sword and heavenly armies ready to fight at the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21). Additionally, verse 31 refers to the Sheep and Goat Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations.
So, Matthew 24:30-31 describes the second coming of Christ and not the rapture. The study “Does two men in the field, one taken and one left refer to the rapture?” describes another passage that people sometimes mistakenly believe refers to the rapture.
Will address your other points later. Thanks for all your fine points. I haven't had this much exercise since I got cornered at lunch with a Five Point Calvinist. We ended up talking till dinner and had to order again.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
@ Duran,
If that is what you think...
Of course the 2nd Coming is after the GT....that's why the GT ends. But before that, this happens:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thess. 4: 17
Do you not believe this?A literal reading of this scripture certainly agrees with the scripture that says when Jesus returns he will have his saints with him. How could he have them with him if they were not previously caught up to Heaven to meet him there?
He returns "with all His saints" (1 Th. 3:13)
What other way could this possibly be understood? -
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
The sheep and the goats judgement is also called the judgment of unbelieving nations. It happens immediately after Jesus is enthroned in Jerusalem.
This is strictly a military mop-up operation. In other words, it is for people who happen to find themselves alive after the GT. Both groups are confused by their judgment. Both groups (the sheep who are allowed to enter and the goats who are dismissed) appear to be confused as to why they either had a good fortune or a bad fortune.
" When did we see you naked and clothed you, hungry and fed you" etc.... both groups ask these kinds of questions, because they don't really know why.
The Lord answers: "to the extent that you did it to one of the least of my brothers (the Jews) you did it to me".
Israel will be the target of the Anti-Christ during the GT and Jews will be killed in such a way that it will make the holocost seem small by comparison.
Those who happen to survive the destruction of the GT and find themselves alive at this time, who didn't go along with the genocidal ambitions of the Anit-Christ, will be allowed to enter.
This is NOT the hope of Church-Age Christians like the WT tries to sell. It is just a military mop-up operation to remove the final dissidents who opposed the new King of the World - the Jew, Jesus.
The Christian hope for those alive just prior to the GT is the Rapture - the snatching away.
Paul instructs believers to wait “for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). As his instructions pertain to “the present age” (v12), I believe this “blessed hope” includes the Rapture of the Church.
Here is the timeline:
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
But something that I should also be able to see for myself (we all should) if they existed, are these so-called 144k chosen ones (rather literal or symbolic).
I would settle for just knowing the whereabouts of just one of them.I feel your pain Duran. The WT did a lot of time distortion on all of us. They have the return of Christ happening in the first part of the 20th century. (As you probably know there were previous dates too).
As a result, they just up and declared that they themselves were the remnant of the144K. The reality is that since Jesus obviously did not return then, the 144K male Jewish virgins haven't appeared on the world scene either.
The take away is that the 144K have nothing to do with Church-Age Christianity since the Church will be taken away. Church age believers will not go through the GT. We are not appointed to wrath:
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thess, 5: 9
The Lord has unfinished business to conduct with Israel. We are taken out of harms way because we are his bride. Jesus is not a wife beater. The 144K male Jewish virgins are part of that unfinished business. We (church-age believers) come back with him for the grand finale at Armageddon:
"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” 1 Thess. 3: 13
A few years prior to this, we are taken out:
For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [b]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words - 1 Thess. 4 (Amplified Bible)
The great comfort and "blessed hope" of believers is that we will not go through the GT like Israel and the rest of the unredeemed world must do. A significant percentage of people who do go through it will see more than two thirds of the population killed by the various wars of the AntiChrist. It is only to these people the words of Jesus are directed when he said "he that has endured till the end will be saved".
But, that aint us. Our Blessed Hope is the Rapture. Or, if we die first, we will immediately be "present with the Lord when we are absent from the body". - 2 Cor. 5: 8
The Lord's 2nd coming is really in two stages: once "in the air" and again a short time later with his saints all the way to Jerusalem where he will triumphantly enter Jerusalem through the sealed Eastern Gate.
We will march with him in his Triumph. Not because we had any righteousness of our own. But simply because we chose to believe a man who came back from the dead.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph. 2: 8-9
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” - Zech. 8:23
When has this ever happened? Or this:
“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Zech. 14: 16
Clearly, Jesus is in Jerusalem during the Millenium Reign.
You put your money on the nation of Israel.
No, it's not THAT big of a deal. The nation of Israel is irrelevant to my Salvation, as I hope for yours as well.
But, think about it. All these prophecies about Jesus, the temple, Israel as a nation.... they all presuppose the existence of a literal Israel.
Since 1948 it is much harder to wipe away all of these prophecies as symbolic. In dramatic fulfillment of bible prophecy, after 1900 years the Nation of Israel was suddenly formed and took its place among the prominent nations of the earth. The very next day after the nation was formed, it was attacked by five Arab nations,. Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Against all odds, they all got their clocks cleaned.
Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. - Is. 66: 8
Just WOW! It was an utter miracle in dramatic modern fulfillment of bible prophecy.
Are we supposed to accept this prophecy as literal but all the others about Israel as symbolic? Doesn't make any sense.
You quoted:
Jesus demonstrated it with a parable (Matt. 21:33-45). Jesus ended the parable by saying: “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)
I say:
And Paul addresses this in Romans 11 that even though severed, Israel can be grafted back in again:
Romans 11: 23 - And these also, [Israel] if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
And that is exactly what all the end times is about- after the Rapture. The nation of Israel will be thoroughly humbled so that the pride of Ephriam is demolished and Israel accepts their God whom they crucified. And, I personally simply can't wait to see Jesus honored among his people that treated him so badly the first time he came.
Finally, Israel will never turn their back on the Lord again because the Lord will inscribe his laws on their hearts instead of on tablets of stone.
At the end of the Thousand Year Reign, the final question of nature vs. nurture will finally be addressed. The problen isn't outside of man, it is inside. The sin nature will forever be abolished, not only for church-age believers, but for the citizens of the world as well....during the recreation.
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
Vidqun,
First of all, it seems that you and I agree that Israel is under a blindness right now. Like I said, after the rapture all attention will be on Israel. Their rejected King is waiting for them to repent as a nation. It will take nine wars during the endtimes before they do it. When they turn to Jesus whom they pierced and say "blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord".... only then will their Lord descend from heaven along with the saints (OT believers and Church-Age believers) and defeat the gathered enemies with the breath of his mouth.
Many confused people will survive the GT and be allowed into the Kingdom based on how they treated the Jews .... Christ's brothers. (Sheep and Goats Judgement,aka Judgment of the Surviving Natiuons)
During the millennium, Jesus will reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept.
Reasons for a Millennial Age or "Dispensation" :
To exalt Christ as King over all the earth and to usher in His kingdom (Zech 14.9, Rev 12:5). The Lord’s prayer ‘Your kingdom come … on earth’ is fully realized. Christ’s rule brings a time of universal peace and the absence of war (Isa 2:4)
To provide a forum for the fulfilment of the unconditional covenants: Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinian and New Covenants: Israel becomes a great nation, Christ sits on David’s throne, and God writes His Law on the hearts of both Jew and Gentile
To bless the land: Israel becomes very fruitful as she receives abundant rain at the right times (Ezek 34:26-27, Isa 41:18)
To restore the nation Israel to her intended place as God’s servant and witness amongst the nations (Isa 43.10). The nation will become “priests of the Lord” to administer God’s law from Jerusalem (Isa 2:3, 61:6, 66:19)
To provide a period of perfect communion between the saints of the first resurrection and their Lord (Rev 20.4-6)
To enable millions of Gentiles to come to know the Lord. The Lord’s people will not only be Israel, rather, they will come from many nations (Zech 2.11)
To provide a ‘day of rest’ for nature. Not only will mankind be in near-perfect communion with the Lord, but also will nature. It is probable that imperfect aspects of nature, such a drought, locust, earthquake and flood will be removed (except when ordained as judgement on a nation). Nature will be at peace (Rom 8.21)
Israel in the Millennium: God’s Witness and Servant
From her birth in the book of Genesis to the present-day, Israel has struggled to fulfill her role as God’s witness and servant in the world. But in the millennium she comes into God’s full blessing, as given to her while on the Exodus journey to Canaan from Egypt. There is a beautiful song of this blessing in the book of Numbers, chapter 6 verses 24-26:
Note that today’s true church will no longer be on earth in the flesh: she will have been taken to be with Christ at His coming (the first resurrection) and returns to earth with Christ as immortal beings (saints). So it is left to remnant Israel (that Jewish remnant from the tribulation) to be God’s witness in the world, and the spiritual blessings of millennial Israel will be the same as those of the present-day church.
Consider:
Millennial Israel will be the sons of God (Hos 1.10) – just like today’s true church
Millennial Israel will be under the mediatorship, sacrifice and priesthood of the New Covenant, where God’s law is written on their hearts (Jer 31.31-34, Rom 11.26,27, Heb 8.8-12) – just like today’s true church
Millennial Israel will be God’s witness in the world and evangelize the Gentile nations – just like today’s true church (Isa 66.18-21)
Millennial Israel will be raised for eternity (Isa 66.22, Rom 11.22-26) – just like today’s true church will be raised at the first resurrection (1 Cor 15)
It is surely time that the institutionalized church recognized the significance of national Israel and start to see her in her true light – as a future ‘church’ to the millennial world – the embodiment of a ‘millennial Christianity’.
Paul makes most of this this clear in Romans 11:
I ask then, did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly noth spare you either.
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they also do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion;
He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27And this is My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”i
28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30For just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone. (Jew and Gentile)
Sorry for the long post. But there are too many prophecies, promises and biblical framework to ignore in order to accept either amillenialism or replacement theology.
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
@Vidqun,
Gal. 6:15-16 was where some Jewish believers were looking down on other uncircumcised believers and needed to be corrected.
Romans 11 conclusively demonstrates that replacement theology is not biblical, and that God still has a major plan for the Jews. It has always been about the Jews "salvation is of the Jews". The entire Christian era is parenthetical to God's larger purpose, which is the final dispensation of the Millenial Rule where Jesus rules the Kingdom of David as foretold. (Read Zecariah where Israel is described in the Millenium Kingdom)
When Christians are raptured out here and "meet the lord in the air", Israel will be front and center on the world stage. 9 Wars of the End Times outlines the most likely scenario of events on earth after the rapture.
In Revelation, the Church is not seen after Chapter 3. From that point on Jesus is revealed as the Almighty to his disobedient children of Israel. The Church finally shows back up in Ch. 19Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.Again, if a person subscribes to either replacement theology or amillenialism, then this is just all symbolic nonsense rather than actual history written in advance. As JW's we were subjected to Replacement Theology. Check your assumptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Yd0oTbR7Q&t=111s&ab_channel=GotQuestionsMinistries
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My Prediction Regarding New Space Telescope That Will See Back to 100 Million Years From the Big Bang
by Sea Breeze ina new space telescope launched a few days age that will supposedly be able to see to within 100 million years of the big bang.
wow... only 100 million years from the big bang.
that is pretty early given the 12 billion year age of the universe assigned by scholars who adhere to naturalism.
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Sea Breeze
Astrophysicist Jason Lisle made virtually the same prediction as I did, with one key difference - my prediction predates his by two weeks !
Kuddos to Dr. Jason Lisle! Nice explanation of the JWST and his predictions here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXllWWUl8Dk&ab_channel=CreationFellowship
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
@Vidqun :
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name - Is. 54: 5
Thanks for the examples. Here the bible gives the definition of a metaphor as it usually does. This is an example of a standard literary device. At other times, the bible will say something like: it is like this or that, which clearly tells the reader about some parallel.
But to assign symbolism, metaphor, or some mystical meaning without a strong biblical directive to do so is very dangerous. I have been to churches where a small group bible study is conducted where a scripture is read and the conductor asks what each person thinks that it means to them personally. What a complete waste of time. I would advise anyone to flee from a church like that.
God's word is truth and we should not play around with it, or at least do so very carefully. Christianity is plaqued with unwarranted symbolic interpretations in epidemic proportions.
When we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s?
The confusion and distortions that inevitably result from such a system of study essentially renders the Scriptures null and void.
The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely.
RC Sproul says this:
When Luther and the Reformers set forth the principle of interpreting the Bible according to the *sensus literalis*, or the “literal sense,” here’s what they meant and what we mean: that to interpret the Bible literally is to interpret the Bible the way it was written. Voilà. So that when you come to the text of Scripture, you have to be able to discern that there are very many varieties of literary genre present in the text. We see that the Bible is written sometimes in the form of letters, sometimes in the form of historical narrative, sometimes in the form of parables, sometimes in the form of proverbs, sometimes in the form of poetry. And there are different rules for interpreting poetry from interpreting historical narrative, for example, and we need to be aware of that. So to interpret the Bible literally means to interpret it according to the way it was written.
Now, let me tell what that doesn’t mean. No one ever has the right to come to a historical narrative text of Scripture and turn it into some kind of moral symbolism. Nineteenth-century liberals were the past masters of this. I grew up in a church and I wasn’t a believer and the church was exceedingly liberal. Our pastor taught us about the miracles of Jesus. And he taught us that at the wedding feast of Cana, what had happened was those great water jars had mixed with some of the sediment that had contained wine in it, that they were basically water, but the people had drunk so much wine that when they brought out this mixed-up version, people thought it was the best wine of all because they were already in a stupor. Or, he said, they were drinking water and the meaning of the text is this: that after all, water is the best wine.
He borrowed from the German liberals on the idea of the feeding of the five thousand. He gave two different interpretations. One was very crass, that Jesus and His disciples had stored a cache of foodstuffs in a cave with a hidden opening. And like a magician, Jesus stood in this long flowing robe—and you’ve seen magicians on the stage, pulling scarves forever out of their sleeves, or sausages—so there was a bucket brigade of loaves and fishes that the disciples had stored in the cave and they were passing it through this hidden opening through this back sleeve of Jesus. And He’s producing enough food to feed five thousand people. That was one interpretation we learned in church.
The other one was, well, the real story was about the little boy who stepped forward with his lunch and he was willing to share. And the real meaning of the text is this: some of the people came with their lunches; others failed to provide for themselves. And when the crisis came at noontime and everybody was hungry, Jesus in His masterful style of moral education was able to get those who had brought their lunches to share with those who didn’t. So, it was a miracle of ethics. That’s how I was instructed of the meaning of the miracles.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, that’s how not to interpret the Bible. That is what we call dishonest exegesis, because those people knew very well that the literary form in which those texts come to us were not symbolic moralisms but that it was presented to us in a genre of historical narrative. Now, you can reject it if you want, but you have no right to twist it to say that it is saying something that it never was saying.
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Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?
by Sea Breeze inno mystery here.
they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.
so, why all the muck and fuss?
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Sea Breeze
PertW: If the old tribes came from four women, then the new tribes will be from the four sides of the world.
That's the problem with waving the symbolic wand, you can make the text say anything.
VH: My take is that the 144,000 symbolically represent the entire church of God
Why would that be your 1st take? What is wrong with a plain reading?
Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.If a person is amillenial (people who believe the thousand year reign is symbolic) or if they subscribe to replacement theology (the belief that the church has replaced the Jewish peope) , then a plain reading won't fit with their presupposition.
But, Jesus was promised a people, a kingdom and a land. I believe that he will get all three. OT saints and Church Age believers will rule with him in a literal kingdom based in Jerusalem.
Here is an old addage that is good to remember when reading the bible:If the plain sense makes the most sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up with non-sense.
And no, a person won't lose their salvation if they are amillenial or subscribe to replacement theology. But, it will tempt them to make things fit by using the symbolic magic wand when the scriptures don't fit.
